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Lots of us record at at 192k for the 4x sample rate improvement, but how does that translate to a more useful or flexible sound file? According to Tim Prebble, plug-ins are more effective at 192k (which I've found to be the case as well) but because they take longer to render I end up using them less due to time constraints.

Also, if most microphones are only capturing frequencies up to 20kHz, shouldn't we use "hi-def" mics (30 - 100kHz range) when recording 192k?

Your thoughts are apprciated!

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8 Answers

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I posed similar questions in this thread.

Afterward I did several tests (which are noted in my response later on in the same thread)

what I found was that even mics that aren't rated above 20k are perfectly capable of capturing great audio far above the audible range - and are capable of it using a pretty wide array of A/D converters and preamps.

everything test here is confirmed capable of recording good stuff well above 20k in my own tests:

  • Sony PCM D50
  • Schoeps CMC6
  • Earthworks DK50
  • AT 4050
  • Sure VP-88
  • Sound Devices 744t
  • John Hardy M1
  • Digi 192 interface

I'll also reaffirm that higher sample rates really add to the flexibility of sounds. The doors that I recorded at 96k for Tim Prebble's doors project have already been pitched down and employed in all kinds of heavy impact situations, and because they retain high freq content they don't sound "pitched" at all - they just sound much bigger.

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Speaking of Tim's door project, is that publicly available yet? – ragamesound Aug 21 2010 at 17:10
not yet - final upload deadline is Aug 31st - should be released a month or so after that... library is now over 80GB! – tim prebble Aug 21 2010 at 20:12
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The way i think it works is that the samples are distributed equally across the20-20khz range to increase the resolution of the wave form for a more accurate "picture", as opposed to using the samples to register higher tan 20khz frequencies. That way the waveform has much more information and so suffers less degradation in processes like pitch shift, time stretch etc, because the signal processor has more to work with.

This doesn't come from any scientific source, it's just what makes sense in my head and would love to confirm or dis-confirm this; plus i just woke up, so i don't know if what i wrote makes any sense at all...

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I discovered a LOT when dealing with the Fireworks Library at 192k eg I thought my HD2 PT rig was powerful (eg on films I often run out of voices, and it can playback 192 tracks at one) but at 192k it became underpowered! The track count, plugin use and even the timeline window became restricted! I would love to work even at 96kHz all the time for better plugin performance but even that would reduce my PT performance too much..

The moral of the story - there is definitely an advantage to using higher sample rates, but practically the workflow tends to be that of recording, editing and manipulating material at 96 or 192, but then do the syncing, layering, editing at 48k.... for now at least!

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Even at the admittedly much lower level of production I'm doing, lately I tend to keep a 96k session just for manipulation and work at 48k for the main multitrack stuff. – Joe Griffin Aug 18 at 7:06
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+1 on the increased resolution of the audible range.

There are definitely some interesting sounds above the 20kHz zone, but you don't necessarily need a mic rated up beyond that to capture them. Many mics will capture those frequencies, but they're response may not be as even as those rated to 50 or 100 kHz.

I wonder if a small diaphragm condenser mic would work better in those applications. Less membrane for the acoustic compressions/rarefactions to excite? Anyone have any thoughts on that idea?

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There's no point in recording frequencies above 20 kHz unless you're going to do something with them, like put them through an effect that will modulate or stretch them back into the audible spectrum.

The main benefit of higher sampling rates is not to capture ultrasound, but to reduce audible things like aliasing, phase distortion, etc.

These can be a benefit for synthesis, too. If your square wave generator is poorly-written, it will produce an infinite number of harmonics, which are aliased and sound bad. If the sampling frequency is higher, this effect is reduced. Of course it would be better if the generator were written correctly, but you can't always control that.

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+1 to a more precise audible waveform

Since we're talking about digital conversion of sound, the more samples you get.. the more acurate it will be.

But then again.. like Filipe here.. that's just my 2 cents!

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I dont agree that sampling frequencies higher than 40kHz increase the accuracy of the recorded frequencies below 20KHz...

Sounds are made up of sine waves and you only need 2 samples to be able to perfectly represent a sine wave since it is a mathematically perfect shape. If you store a million samples for one sine wave it will be no more accurately represented than with 2 samples.

But hey, I could be wrong

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@Haydn, I like your thinking and makes sense to me. As you read in my question, it's the stuff above 20kHz that I'm after, so I assume you're commenting on someone else's answer? – Jay Jennings Sep 13 2010 at 21:31
@Jay Jennings - yes sorry I was making a general comment about a couple of other replies, not really related specifically to what you asked. I think it's a tricky subject to understand, partly because there contradictory information from different sources. – Haydn Payne Sep 13 2010 at 21:46
Sounds are made up of sine waves.. or represented as sine waves? If you're talking about a perfect sine wave, like 1khz, yes.. it's true that you can represent it with only 2 samples.. but when it comes to complex sound waves, like the most of the sounds we hear, I think that only 2 samples will represent that complex wave in a sine wave.. I might be wrong.. but otherwise why do they build up 192khz converters.. and why do they sound better, at least to my ears? But then again.. I might be highly mistaken.. Please someone enlighten! :) (excuse me in advance for any non sense english!) – António Porém Pires Sep 14 2010 at 15:23
Yes as far as I know all sounds are made up of sine waves, complex sound waves are made up of multiple sine waves at different frequencies. A French dude called Fourier discovered this about 200 years ago. Btw, your english is perfectly understandable! :) – Haydn Payne Sep 14 2010 at 18:22
Yup, I've heard about that Fourier guy.. lol :P I just can't understand how complex waves can be represented with only 2 samples! :S I guess it's time to search and learn a little bit more about it! :) Thanks :) – António Porém Pires Sep 15 2010 at 12:06
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Here is an abstract you'll want to look at.

http://jn.physiology.org/content/83/6/3548.abstract

Talks about the impact of frequncies we can't heard in perception of sound. So yeah, it matters :)

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@Toddsquad, pretty interesting abstract. I guess the challenge now is finding ways to allow the general public to experience 192kHz recordings properly, ie. not in theatres or other public spaces where either the processing chain is throttling back anything above 16k or the monitoring leaves much to be desired. – Jay Jennings Aug 17 at 22:17

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